Straight Talk

Raul Ries: How do you deal with these leaders that don't want to be disqualified and then come back to their churches or start a new ministry? I think that we need to understand that we need to have the fear of God and to be holy as He is holy. When we do that, we're going to be convicted. Where there is conviction, there’s restoration.
Guest (Male): Welcome to Somebody Loves You Radio, the Bible teaching ministry of Raul Ries in Diamond Bar, California. It's good to have you with us for Straight Talk with Raul and Pastors Dale and Shawn. Today, they'll focus on properly managing the sinful failures of those in church leadership. Today's conversation will show us that there's a balance between holding leaders accountable when they fall and allowing room for grace and restoration. Now, here's Raul Ries.
Raul Ries: I thought that today we would do something different. I want to speak about leaders that get into a ministry, they’re doing well, and then they fall. When I say fall, they get into a sin that disqualifies them from service. I thought I'd read something that Chuck wrote in one of his devotionals that I read yesterday. The devotional is titled "Touch God." He says, "What does it mean to have your heart touched by God?" The answer: "It means that God is now at the center of your will and your being. It means that you have surrendered your life in totality unto Him." 1 Samuel 10:26-27. When you come to Christ, I think that it’s important to understand there's a difference. When I say difference, it is the same God and the same Holy Spirit, but when you're called to be at a higher level, to much is given, much is required. I think that when you come to that place in your life that you've been called by the Lord, there's the anointing, there's the message, and then there's the discipline or there's the integrity that has to be completed. What I found out over the years in dealing with pastors and being today with 2,010 churches that are Calvary Chapels, you have these young guys, guys in their mid-age, and these guys that are old, some of them that have fallen into sin. I wrote three things down here. They've fallen into women, money, pride, or sexual encounters that will disqualify you. There are ministries that believe that once you fall, you can't get back into the ministry. But what about grace? What about the law? I think that it has to be clarified because sometimes weak men fall into things they shouldn't, and the problem is they haven't been in the Word. Or somebody is attracted to a beautiful woman, or if you're a woman, falling in love with a guy. A lot of times in counseling people, two pastors, where the woman comes in and she has marriage problems and she doesn't know what to do. So, she's listening to me when I'm counseling her, and she says, "I wish I had a man just like this." So, the devil comes along. She’s pretty, so you want to counsel with her again, or she wants to counsel with you. The enemy sees an opportunity to open the door for that person to fall. When I say fall, they fall in love with each other or they lust after each other. I think it’s important as pastors, as leaders, and as just common people, how can we solve this problem?
Dale: Yeah, I’d like to start off with how it can be prevented and how we can help. That's what we need to be there for is to help. We're not there bringing out the gun to shoot those who fall. One thing you've always said, Pastor Raul, is we don't leave our wounded. We don't leave them for dead. We don't shoot the wounded. It's not a matter of just taking somebody out of ministry. It's the hardest thing in the world to take somebody out of ministry. We've had to do it. It breaks our heart. I weep because I know that in the beginning, they were sincere in most cases. We saw them doing the right things, but like you said, a moment of weakness. That's all it takes. Look at King David. He didn't go to battle as he should have. He didn't maintain his role of leadership as he should have. He kicked back for a moment, thinking I'll be okay, but all the time, Satan was working on him. She was beautiful on top of the roof. He knew what he was doing and he knew her husband. Nothing's changed, and today that happens. I first want to premise what we're going to do here. Discipline is a word that we need to understand. In the Bible, it means one thing. Today, it means another. Today, it means punishment. When we discipline our child or discipline somebody, our first thought is always punishment. In the Bible, especially as we disciple people, it's training, it’s teaching, it’s encouraging, and it’s showing them the right direction. I'd like to do some of that this morning in discipling those who desire to be in leadership. The Bible says those who desire the work of a bishop in 1 Timothy Chapter 3 desire a good thing. How do we know who they are? One thing we do here, and Pastor Raul fed me right from the beginning, is this is what we want in leadership: read 1 Timothy Chapter 3. They must meet the qualifications. How do we know they meet the qualifications? We need interaction. Be careful when you allow one person to choose your leaders. It should require two or three experienced, seasoned pastors or leaders who help the senior pastor, because nobody in our leadership is chosen without Pastor Raul's final approval. He’ll tell me to keep an eye on this person because he sees perhaps an anointing on them. First thing we look for is the anointing. Is he there at all times? He’s come to repentance. He’s had a life change, as is necessary in salvation. In a new creation in Christ Jesus, old things pass away, and behold, all things become new. Is he a new person and does he have evidence of it? Just because somebody comes to you and says they’re ready to serve doesn't mean they’re ready to serve. All it means is they are asking to serve. That's a good thing, but what we must do is now take our time so that we don't put them in a position, like one of the qualifications is to be careful you don't appoint someone too soon, a novice, somebody new, because they can get puffed up. When they get puffed up, they fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Disqualification: make sure that you have spent time with them. One thing Pastor Romaine would tell me, if somebody wants to serve, great, have them empty trash cans, have them clean toilets, have them do the difficult things. If they aren't faithful in the small things, they certainly aren't going to be faithful in the big things.
Raul Ries: Who's Pastor Romaine?
Dale: Pastor Romaine was, as many who are listening and have been around for a while remember, he was Pastor Chuck's first assistant pastor. I believe God brought him to Pastor Chuck because Pastor Chuck was the leader and he was a strong leader and he was a director, but Romaine was his balance. Pastor Chuck didn't really like to confront that much. He was too loving. His motto was he was the apostle of love. That's what everybody used to call Pastor Chuck, but that's not what they called Romaine. Romaine was gruff. He was hard. He was a gunnery sergeant in the Marine Corps. He was a wonderful man in my estimation by all means, and he was rough with me at times, but he made himself perfectly clear. That was how important it was to choose the right leader. We were there while he was vibrant and serving, and I learned everything. I can say that Pastor Raul forced me to go down and in the beginning, it was hard because he was different. But I learned to love him, and then I would go down even alone to have lunch with him. Pastor Raul and I at least once a month took him to lunch, and he poured into me, and I know Pastor Raul had poured into Pastor Romaine long before me. He taught me so much about choosing a leader. That helps in the long run because whatever that person might do in regards to sin and disqualification, it breaks the heart of the ministry. It breaks the heart of the ministry and it causes people to question the leadership of the ministry. So many things happen when a pastor or a leader falls, and I feel personally that maybe we didn't do our job the way we should have. We have to make sure from the beginning that we follow 1 Timothy Chapter 3 in the qualifications of ministry. Most of the first part of it is about his home and about his private life. I ask pastors when they come on, or leaders when they come on, to remember there can be no hidden sin. If there's something going on or has gone on in your life, I'm not going to tell everybody, but tell me so that if someone comes and makes an accusation, let's say against Shawn, I can say to them that I already know and God has forgiven because he shared with me. It wasn't as though he was exposed; he shared with me. Having sin in your life isn't something that disqualifies you because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It's when you hide your sin and when you try and make it appear that you've done everything right. Well, that's foolish. We know that nobody has done everything right except Jesus.
Raul Ries: Let me ask you this, it’s for women too, right?
Dale: Oh, absolutely. One of the things is so important and Pastor Raul knows this, we’ve had Sharon in the ministry from the beginning, his wife. She went home to be with the Lord two years ago this May, and one thing she left behind was this type of leadership. She knew her women and she spent time with her women. Please listen up, ladies, spend time with your godly leaders. It's difficult, but it is essential that you have a ministry that is consistent with the Word of God, with the Bible. One thing Sharon always made sure of, you weren't a leader in her women's ministry unless you submitted to the authority of the church. Raul knows that Sharon, the pastor's wife, any decision she would make, she would come and she would discuss it with me. If I said no and I didn't approve, she wouldn't do it. She would just say, "Okay, thanks, Dale," and walk out. She was in submission to the ministry and the leadership always. She learned that from her mother and her father, and they learned it from the Bible. We're not against women in leadership here. We approve of women in leadership, but there are certain things they can do and certain things they shouldn't do.
Guest (Male): This is Somebody Loves You Radio with Raul Ries. Visit somebodylovesyou.com for a wide array of resources that will direct you in God's ways. You can also join Raul for more Straight Talk every Tuesday at 10 a.m. Pacific on our worldwide YouTube channel. Now, back to more of today's conversation.
Raul Ries: This morning, as I was reading in my office in Chapter 4 of 1 Timothy, he starts out by declaring here, he says, "Our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, particularly with all believers. Teach these things and insist everyone to learn them. Don't let anyone think less of you because you are young or be an example to all believers in what you say, in the way you live, in your love, in your faith, and in your purity." "Until we get there, focus on reading the scriptures to the church, encouraging believers and teaching them. Do not neglect the spiritual gift you've received from the prophecy spoken over them when the elders of the church laid their hands on you. Give your complete attention to these matters. Throw yourself into your task so that everyone will see your progress. Keep close watch on how to live and on your teaching. Stay true to what is right for the sake of your own salvation and the salvation of others who hear you." Shawn, what do you have to say to these things for leaders, pastors, elders, deacons, the whole body?
Shawn: A lot of good things. I love that portion you just read from 1 Timothy Chapter 4 because it’s written from Paul to Timothy, who was called to be a pastor and leader. He was going to be dealing with some of the issues we're talking about and having to discipline, having to correct, and having to bring people to maturity. There were all different kinds of sets of people, and he had to be confident in what God had anointed him and called him to, and that the evidence of his growth and maturity as a leader was going to be evident to all if led by the Spirit of God. You're going to deal with a lot of stuff because there's spiritual warfare in ministry. There's spiritual warfare in life. Dale brings up 1 Timothy Chapter 3, the qualifications. Another one that we love is in James 3, where James gives this exhortation where he says, "Let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive the stricter judgment." So, there's more responsibility to a leader. A leader, when God starts using your life, you want to be very mindful that it's not you, it's the Lord. God gives you the opportunity to be used by the Lord, and that's why I think one of those qualifications is let not him be a novice, because people can get caught up in themselves. You can walk away from being the simple things of reading, devotion, and receiving. A lot of times I think guys get so busy serving and doing so many things, with a lot of distraction, that they stop receiving and they stop growing. If you stop being teachable or you think like you've made it and you're never going to have these battles any longer, you're going to fall short because Satan's never going to give up on you. This is obviously a problem in the church for the congregation, but as we talk about leaders, leaders do fall too. You come back and you're like, why? Usually, it's not few, and for big pastors too. There's a book by Jim Sabala. I forgot what it was called, but I was reading the introduction and he was talking about this one particular pastor at that time. I don't know who he is in reference to, one of the big 80s ones. They had seen something; they got back from ministry and they saw this guy preaching. The way he was preaching, the discernment in the Spirit was like something's off with him. So much so that he knew a close friend of his, so he reached out. He said, "Is so-and-so doing okay? I just have this check in my heart." And his assistant was broken. He was readying his resignation because his pastor had gone off to the left or to the right, but he wouldn't listen anymore. He sent this letter saying, "Shut it down." Stop going all over the place because it's going to implode because you're not right with God. But unfortunately, he’s like, "You don't know what you're talking about." He removed this leader and he continued his thing until a year or a couple of years later everything dismantled and it was exposed because that heart had drifted from God. I like what you guys shared with whoever falls, but I'd like to say to them, go home and read Paul's letter in Chapter 20. Look at what he says at the end of his life. I think that's very important. At the end of his life, he sums up everything. He's going to be going to Rome, he’s going to die, and he wants to make sure the other pastors and the church listen. At the end of his letter, what do the elders do? They love him, they cry because they're not going to see him again until heaven. I think that that can draw leaders back to the Lord if they really listen to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is going to speak to them and they're going to repent. They're going to know I have to repent of this sin if I want to be used by the Lord. Then I go back to 1 Timothy Chapter 3. I read that and now it means more to me because Paul has exhorted me. He wrote to Timothy, so he says this is what I wrote before. I'm old now, but I'm heading in the same direction, but a little bit more depth because I'm getting ready to leave to be with the Lord.
Dale: Absolutely. It’s always the problem that this is only a half-hour long, and we were here this morning talking about discipline. I just wanted to mention this if it's okay, Raul. What do we do if a leader in our church falls? How do we treat it? I'm going to first say that every situation is different. There are minor issues and there are major issues. The minor issues we try and deal with alone because they don't affect the congregation. The minor issues could lead to affecting it, but at this point, we see things, we evidence things, like Shawn was saying about that one pastor that had fallen and nobody knew about it, but evidence was starting to come out. Pastor Raul and I knew a pastor like that and I heard him on the radio answering questions people were calling in. Somebody called in and said, "Hey, my daughter is dating a non-Christian. What can I do to help her break that relationship up?" And he responded on the radio, I’ll never forget it, we were on by Hollywood, and he said, "Oh, don't worry about it. You raised her up in a godly way. She will straighten it out. There’s really nothing wrong." Well, the Bible specifically says we're not to be unequally yoked, and we were just like, "What? Why isn't he helping this person with a child who is obviously making some wrong decisions?" As long as they're living under your roof, you have every right in the world to counsel them and to share with them what's going to happen when you engage in that kind of a relationship. We saw in him something wrong. Within two or three weeks, it becomes public that he had fallen with his secretary. It was a big ministry and he lost it all and became a used car salesman. Pastor Raul and I were in a bookstore and all of his books were on the shelves for sale. Man, what a heartbreak. Raul opened one and he goes, "Dale, come here, look," and it was his name. I won't mention his name. He's still struggling, and this was about 15 years ago. It was his Bible with his name on it, and Raul says, "Look, it's for sale." I thought this is what it looks like if you don't repent. But what if he had repented right away and admitted his guilt? Listen, there is time for restoration in the ministry. But God knows who you are and He knows what you've done. Sometimes people think, "Well, why isn't he a senior pastor? Why isn't he a pastor again?" Well, sometimes you disqualify yourself permanently. That's true. I mean, Shawn, what do you think? We’re getting short here.
Shawn: Yeah, I think hitting on that note, the solutions. Galatians 6 tells us that, "Brethren, if anyone is overtaken in a trespass, you who are spiritual..." You know what you need? You need good leadership as a whole that has a goal. The goal should be restoration. People can resist a restoration on that side, and the Bible has a lot to say about that. If you're led by the Spirit of God, your heart should always be in discipline or correction to draw the people closer to the Lord and closer to maturity. Paul talked about this in 1 Corinthians 2, where they had somebody that was falling into sexual immorality. He says, "You’re aware of this, you know it, but nobody's doing anything. I'm a distance away and I'm telling you right now, this is wrong before the Lord. There is a man that's sleeping with his mother-in-law. You've got to take care of this. Give them over to the destruction of the flesh." Then that’s something that they do because he’s showing this is going to bring leaven into the camp and everything is going to be destroyed. In 2 Corinthians early on, he talks about, whether he’s talking about this person or another person, he says in the first two or three chapters by saying, "Hey, that person that we disciplined, the person that we corrected, bring him back into the fold now and restore him because Satan is going to destroy his mind and continue to just destroy him all the way to the grave. Bring him back and build him up in the things of God." That's very important and there's always hope in the end, I would say, Raul.
Raul Ries: We’re out of time. We’ll come back because there's too much to talk about. I think I wrote here, there's grace and there’s judgment. I've seen a lot of pastors because I'm on a board that Chuck left, and I see so much every week, every day. I think that we need to understand that we need to have the fear of God and to be holy as He is holy. When we do that, we're going to be convicted. Where there is conviction, there’s restoration. So, we're going to come back and really deal with some more issues concerning leaders, leaders in ministry. How do you deal with these leaders that don't want to be disqualified and then come back to their churches or start a new ministry? We're going to talk about this. God bless you. I love you guys.
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